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	<title>Comments on: California Governor Vetoes Instant-Runoff Bill</title>
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	<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/</link>
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		<title>By: Laura Roslin</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-150665</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Roslin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 06:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-150665</guid>
		<description>Instant Runoff Voting fails an important election rule - KISS. Keep it simple stupid.  
San Francisco elections have seen no increase in turnout. Voters continue to under vote their ballots (only marking one or two candidates) to an extreme amount. IRV is becoming known as &quot;incumbent protection&quot; in San Francisco.

DO a control f and type in &quot;incumbent&quot; at this webpage, there are several different articles about this phenomenon in San Francisco elections since the advent of IRV
http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/sanfrancisco.html

Also, take a look at how Australia, using IRV - has a two party rule, and Ireland has nearly a one party rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instant Runoff Voting fails an important election rule &#8211; KISS. Keep it simple stupid.<br />
San Francisco elections have seen no increase in turnout. Voters continue to under vote their ballots (only marking one or two candidates) to an extreme amount. IRV is becoming known as &#8220;incumbent protection&#8221; in San Francisco.</p>
<p>DO a control f and type in &#8220;incumbent&#8221; at this webpage, there are several different articles about this phenomenon in San Francisco elections since the advent of IRV<br />
<a href="http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/sanfrancisco.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/sanfrancisco.html</a></p>
<p>Also, take a look at how Australia, using IRV &#8211; has a two party rule, and Ireland has nearly a one party rule.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Yager</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-138028</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Yager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 20:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-138028</guid>
		<description>&quot;And if 34 percent are voting for Hitler and 33 percent for Stalin, youâ€™ve got problems that the voting system is not going to solve.&quot;

Exactly!  If two-thirds of the people favor a totalitarian state, then it&#039;s very doubtful that they will allow the remaining third to hold them at bay for very long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And if 34 percent are voting for Hitler and 33 percent for Stalin, youâ€™ve got problems that the voting system is not going to solve.&#8221;</p>
<p>Exactly!  If two-thirds of the people favor a totalitarian state, then it&#8217;s very doubtful that they will allow the remaining third to hold them at bay for very long.</p>
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		<title>By: Demo Rep</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-137883</link>
		<dc:creator>Demo Rep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 01:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-137883</guid>
		<description>Only SUPER-Morons could NOT note the left / right extremist math for U.S.A. Prez in 1860, 1932, 1968, 1972, 1992, 2000 and 2004 to name just a few.

It will only take ONE election to elect a Stalin or Hitler type via IRV to be Prez for the END of freedom in the U.S.A.

Thus --- IRV is for New Age math MORONS who just love electing Stalin or Hitler types with their IRV manufactured majority mandates for a *change* [to death and destruction].

In case any of such MORONS have not noticed, every New Age rotted incumbent considers him/her self chosen by Heaven and has the support of 100 percent of the voters in *his/her* election area turfzone [political concentration camp area] --- with a *mandate* to be a total leftwing or rightwing statist lunatic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only SUPER-Morons could NOT note the left / right extremist math for U.S.A. Prez in 1860, 1932, 1968, 1972, 1992, 2000 and 2004 to name just a few.</p>
<p>It will only take ONE election to elect a Stalin or Hitler type via IRV to be Prez for the END of freedom in the U.S.A.</p>
<p>Thus &#8212; IRV is for New Age math MORONS who just love electing Stalin or Hitler types with their IRV manufactured majority mandates for a *change* [to death and destruction].</p>
<p>In case any of such MORONS have not noticed, every New Age rotted incumbent considers him/her self chosen by Heaven and has the support of 100 percent of the voters in *his/her* election area turfzone [political concentration camp area] &#8212; with a *mandate* to be a total leftwing or rightwing statist lunatic.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Prindle</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-137868</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Prindle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-137868</guid>
		<description>People who think IRV is perfection may be &quot;math morons,&quot; but those who think it will single-handedly lead us to tyranny aren&#039;t paying attention to reality.

The Hitler/Stalin/Washington example and those like it always assume that the &quot;moderate&quot; candidate will naturally be the second choice of anyone whose first choice is one of the more &quot;extreme&quot; candidates. Note that in the above example, not a single voter ranks Washington as her or his least favorite candidate.

This common assumption -- that voter preferences can always be plotted on a linear axis in accordance with static, abstract notions of left and right -- has the disadvantage of being false. Polls and documented voting behavior repeatedly confirm this.

Once you remove the assumption of linear voter preferences, the practical differences between IRV and other systems such as Condorcet become much smaller; they will generally produce the same results.

And if 34 percent are voting for Hitler and 33 percent for Stalin, you&#039;ve got problems that the voting system is not going to solve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who think IRV is perfection may be &#8220;math morons,&#8221; but those who think it will single-handedly lead us to tyranny aren&#8217;t paying attention to reality.</p>
<p>The Hitler/Stalin/Washington example and those like it always assume that the &#8220;moderate&#8221; candidate will naturally be the second choice of anyone whose first choice is one of the more &#8220;extreme&#8221; candidates. Note that in the above example, not a single voter ranks Washington as her or his least favorite candidate.</p>
<p>This common assumption &#8212; that voter preferences can always be plotted on a linear axis in accordance with static, abstract notions of left and right &#8212; has the disadvantage of being false. Polls and documented voting behavior repeatedly confirm this.</p>
<p>Once you remove the assumption of linear voter preferences, the practical differences between IRV and other systems such as Condorcet become much smaller; they will generally produce the same results.</p>
<p>And if 34 percent are voting for Hitler and 33 percent for Stalin, you&#8217;ve got problems that the voting system is not going to solve.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-137853</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-137853</guid>
		<description>As for the Condorcet and Range voting supporters, any bill that would get us closer to any reform, including these would be welcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the Condorcet and Range voting supporters, any bill that would get us closer to any reform, including these would be welcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-137852</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-137852</guid>
		<description>So disapointing.. This bill never intended to force anyone into IRV, it was simply allowing non-charter cities the chance of implementing it, instead of going through the trouble of establishing a charter. So ridiculous. Like Bob Richard pointed out Davis is going through this. They could have saved alot of work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So disapointing.. This bill never intended to force anyone into IRV, it was simply allowing non-charter cities the chance of implementing it, instead of going through the trouble of establishing a charter. So ridiculous. Like Bob Richard pointed out Davis is going through this. They could have saved alot of work.</p>
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		<title>By: Demo Rep</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-137840</link>
		<dc:creator>Demo Rep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-137840</guid>
		<description>Are ALL incumbents EVIL and caring only about their own EVIL party gang ???  Duh.
--------
Major defects of the Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) Method, 30 May 2007
 
Times are ROUGH and TOUGH -- like 1860 or 1932.  The *middle* is very divided.
 
34 H W S
33 S W H
16 W H S
16 W S H
 
99
 
Place Votes Table
 
      1      2      3
 
H    34     16     49    99
S    33     16     50    99
W    32     67      0    99
 
     99     99     99 
 
With IRV, W loses.  H beats S 50-49.
 
Head to head (Condorcet method) ---
W beats H 65-34
W beats S 66-33

W WINS.
 
IF the first 2 place votes are *YES* votes (as in Approval Voting), then  --
 
H 50
S 49
W 99  

W WINS

IF the Bucklin Method is used (add place votes to get a majority), then adding the place 1 and place 2 votes  ---

H 50
S 49
W 99

W WINS
 
H Hitler, S Stalin, W George Washington (American General in the 1775-1783 American Revolution and the first U.S. President, 1789-1797)
 
IRV is super-dangerous since it ignores most of the data in a place votes table --- regardless of the New Age mindless math MORONS hyping IRV in various places -- especially for executive / judicial offices.
 
IRV WILL nominate / elect HITLER / STALIN TYPE extremists ---- who will claim a mighty IRV majority *mandate* for their EVIL stuff -- while defeating compromise candidates -- especially for offices like President, Governor, Mayor, etc.
---------
ALL (repeat ALL) voting methods have problems with 3 or more choices.  See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system

Example - divided majority

26 AB
25 BA
49 Z
100

Can the 49 Z voters choose the lesser of the two A or B evils (according to them) ???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are ALL incumbents EVIL and caring only about their own EVIL party gang ???  Duh.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
Major defects of the Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) Method, 30 May 2007</p>
<p>Times are ROUGH and TOUGH &#8212; like 1860 or 1932.  The *middle* is very divided.</p>
<p>34 H W S<br />
33 S W H<br />
16 W H S<br />
16 W S H</p>
<p>99</p>
<p>Place Votes Table</p>
<p>      1      2      3</p>
<p>H    34     16     49    99<br />
S    33     16     50    99<br />
W    32     67      0    99</p>
<p>     99     99     99 </p>
<p>With IRV, W loses.  H beats S 50-49.</p>
<p>Head to head (Condorcet method) &#8212;<br />
W beats H 65-34<br />
W beats S 66-33</p>
<p>W WINS.</p>
<p>IF the first 2 place votes are *YES* votes (as in Approval Voting), then  &#8211;</p>
<p>H 50<br />
S 49<br />
W 99  </p>
<p>W WINS</p>
<p>IF the Bucklin Method is used (add place votes to get a majority), then adding the place 1 and place 2 votes  &#8212;</p>
<p>H 50<br />
S 49<br />
W 99</p>
<p>W WINS</p>
<p>H Hitler, S Stalin, W George Washington (American General in the 1775-1783 American Revolution and the first U.S. President, 1789-1797)</p>
<p>IRV is super-dangerous since it ignores most of the data in a place votes table &#8212; regardless of the New Age mindless math MORONS hyping IRV in various places &#8212; especially for executive / judicial offices.</p>
<p>IRV WILL nominate / elect HITLER / STALIN TYPE extremists &#8212;- who will claim a mighty IRV majority *mandate* for their EVIL stuff &#8212; while defeating compromise candidates &#8212; especially for offices like President, Governor, Mayor, etc.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
ALL (repeat ALL) voting methods have problems with 3 or more choices.  See</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system</a></p>
<p>Example &#8211; divided majority</p>
<p>26 AB<br />
25 BA<br />
49 Z<br />
100</p>
<p>Can the 49 Z voters choose the lesser of the two A or B evils (according to them) ???</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-137825</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2007/10/15/california-governor-vetoes-instant-runoff-bill/#comment-137825</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Several cities in California have already voted to use Instant Runoff Voting, but state law prevents them from implementing their choice because they arenâ€™t charter cities.&lt;/em&gt;

Only the city of Davis is in this category.  The cities of Oakland, Berkeley and San Leandro (all in Alameda County) do have charters.  Implementation in Berkeley has been delayed in part by exactly the sorts of problems that AB 1294 would have helped to solve by putting counting and reporting procedures in state law.  Implementation in Oakland may also be delayed, even though the county&#039;s equipment vendor was more or less on schedule until the recent decertification of touch screen voting machines put everything else on the back burner.

That said, the veto message lacks both reasoning and any respect for evidence.  For example, it describes San Francisco&#039;s adoption of IRV as being on a &quot;trial basis&quot;.  Huh?  I don&#039;t see anything about a &quot;trial&quot; in the San Francisco charter (or in any other the other charters for that matter).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Several cities in California have already voted to use Instant Runoff Voting, but state law prevents them from implementing their choice because they arenâ€™t charter cities.</em></p>
<p>Only the city of Davis is in this category.  The cities of Oakland, Berkeley and San Leandro (all in Alameda County) do have charters.  Implementation in Berkeley has been delayed in part by exactly the sorts of problems that AB 1294 would have helped to solve by putting counting and reporting procedures in state law.  Implementation in Oakland may also be delayed, even though the county&#8217;s equipment vendor was more or less on schedule until the recent decertification of touch screen voting machines put everything else on the back burner.</p>
<p>That said, the veto message lacks both reasoning and any respect for evidence.  For example, it describes San Francisco&#8217;s adoption of IRV as being on a &#8220;trial basis&#8221;.  Huh?  I don&#8217;t see anything about a &#8220;trial&#8221; in the San Francisco charter (or in any other the other charters for that matter).</p>
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