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	<title>Comments on: Some Observations on the Lopez Torres Decision</title>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-212093</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t need the read the transcript; I was in the US Supreme Court building when the case was argued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t need the read the transcript; I was in the US Supreme Court building when the case was argued.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-209899</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 06:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-209899</guid>
		<description>Richard said: &quot;Itâ€™s not 500 signatures, itâ€™s 10,500 signatures! A separate petition is required in each of 21 Assembly districts (for her particular district).&quot;

Actually you are simply wrong.  Not a little wrong, but 9 Supreme Court Justices wrong.  You want direct democracy (i.e. the candidate running delegates) when the state of new york provides represenative democracy (i.e. unpledged delegates).  Lopez Torres did not a single petition signature for delegate to be &quot;pledged&quot; to her, but still ended up with approximately 1/3 of the vote at the conventions she lost. This is because enrolled members of the party can run as unpledged delegates in an assembly district.  Some delegates supported her, just not enough to win.  These delegates to not represent Lopez Torres or any other candidate, but rather represent their assembly district at the convention.  What you want Richard is for Lopez Torres and other candidates to be able to take their case directly to the voters, but that is simply not represenative democracy.  

So, I will say it one more time the reason that the court discussed 500 signatures (rather then the fantasy number of thousands) is because the only position that rank-and-file members have to select are their delegates.  

Remember Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer, etc... all agreed with Scalia that the correct number was 500 signatures.  And if you actually read the transcript of oral argument, you&#039;ll understand that this was viewed as a no-brainer.  So, I guess the constitution does not stop states from enacting stupid laws, but it also doesn&#039;t stop the Brennan Center from bringing stupid cases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard said: &#8220;Itâ€™s not 500 signatures, itâ€™s 10,500 signatures! A separate petition is required in each of 21 Assembly districts (for her particular district).&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually you are simply wrong.  Not a little wrong, but 9 Supreme Court Justices wrong.  You want direct democracy (i.e. the candidate running delegates) when the state of new york provides represenative democracy (i.e. unpledged delegates).  Lopez Torres did not a single petition signature for delegate to be &#8220;pledged&#8221; to her, but still ended up with approximately 1/3 of the vote at the conventions she lost. This is because enrolled members of the party can run as unpledged delegates in an assembly district.  Some delegates supported her, just not enough to win.  These delegates to not represent Lopez Torres or any other candidate, but rather represent their assembly district at the convention.  What you want Richard is for Lopez Torres and other candidates to be able to take their case directly to the voters, but that is simply not represenative democracy.  </p>
<p>So, I will say it one more time the reason that the court discussed 500 signatures (rather then the fantasy number of thousands) is because the only position that rank-and-file members have to select are their delegates.  </p>
<p>Remember Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer, etc&#8230; all agreed with Scalia that the correct number was 500 signatures.  And if you actually read the transcript of oral argument, you&#8217;ll understand that this was viewed as a no-brainer.  So, I guess the constitution does not stop states from enacting stupid laws, but it also doesn&#8217;t stop the Brennan Center from bringing stupid cases.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Rankin</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-209641</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Rankin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-209641</guid>
		<description>Jim R:  (1) General election voters may be asked their party preferences in exit polls.  This, of course, can only be a sample of the total turnout, but the numbers can be determined from the sample.

(2) The state decides whether parties are required to nominate candidates, and, if so, which method (s) of nomination the parties may use.

(3) In all but nine states, the voter&#039;s choice of party on nominating day is publicly recorded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim R:  (1) General election voters may be asked their party preferences in exit polls.  This, of course, can only be a sample of the total turnout, but the numbers can be determined from the sample.</p>
<p>(2) The state decides whether parties are required to nominate candidates, and, if so, which method (s) of nomination the parties may use.</p>
<p>(3) In all but nine states, the voter&#8217;s choice of party on nominating day is publicly recorded.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim R</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-209429</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:21:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-209429</guid>
		<description>To Green Voter:  Who constitutes a party in its role as nominating/endorsing party?  Is it (1) the voters who vote for the candidates of the party in the general election; (2) those who participate in its primaries or conventions; (3) those who are registered members? (4) Other, please specify.

(1) is not determinable, but is typically the basis for continuing ballot access.  So shouldn&#039;t the nominating process be as accessible to those persons as voting in the general election?

(2) if it is those who participate in the primaries, how can they decide not to have a primary?

(3) what if there is no party registration?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Green Voter:  Who constitutes a party in its role as nominating/endorsing party?  Is it (1) the voters who vote for the candidates of the party in the general election; (2) those who participate in its primaries or conventions; (3) those who are registered members? (4) Other, please specify.</p>
<p>(1) is not determinable, but is typically the basis for continuing ballot access.  So shouldn&#8217;t the nominating process be as accessible to those persons as voting in the general election?</p>
<p>(2) if it is those who participate in the primaries, how can they decide not to have a primary?</p>
<p>(3) what if there is no party registration?</p>
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		<title>By: Green Voter</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-208690</link>
		<dc:creator>Green Voter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-208690</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s different because the United States Constitution guarantees us freedom to association and freedom OF association. I actually agree with Scalia that Lopez Torres has no right to DEMAND association with a party (voluntary association is a voluntary two-way street) but to claim that a party can&#039;t choose it&#039;s own system for selecting nominees is simply insane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s different because the United States Constitution guarantees us freedom to association and freedom OF association. I actually agree with Scalia that Lopez Torres has no right to DEMAND association with a party (voluntary association is a voluntary two-way street) but to claim that a party can&#8217;t choose it&#8217;s own system for selecting nominees is simply insane.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim R</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-208685</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-208685</guid>
		<description>Here is the key:

&quot;To be sure, we have, as described above, permitted States to set their faces against &#039;party bosses&#039; by requiring party-candidate selection through processes more favorable to insurgents, such as primaries. But to say that the State can require this is a far cry from saying that the Constitution demands it.&quot;

The US Constitution requires that Representatives be elected.  State laws requires candidates to be nominated.  But does the US Constitution require that the candidates be nominated via direct party primary elections, even in areas of single party dominance?  No.  And even if they were nominated by primaries, it would not mean that a Representative was chosen by the people, since a party primary has an exclusive electorate.

So how is this different from the case of Superior Court judges in New York?  The NY Constitution requires them to be elected by the voters, and they are.  Lopez Torres sought election in 2003 and lost.

Richard: I don&#039;t see where the 305 delegates is coming from.  The Federal District Court decision says that there were 124 delegates from 24 AD.  The plaintiff&#039;s brief says that Lopez Torres would have had to run 127 delegate candidates.

Richard S: Breyer only joined Part II of Kennedy&#039;s opinion, which was the generalized rant about electing judges at all.  Part I was the part where Kennedy said he would have dissented if not for the opportunity to petition to get on the general election ballot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the key:</p>
<p>&#8220;To be sure, we have, as described above, permitted States to set their faces against &#8216;party bosses&#8217; by requiring party-candidate selection through processes more favorable to insurgents, such as primaries. But to say that the State can require this is a far cry from saying that the Constitution demands it.&#8221;</p>
<p>The US Constitution requires that Representatives be elected.  State laws requires candidates to be nominated.  But does the US Constitution require that the candidates be nominated via direct party primary elections, even in areas of single party dominance?  No.  And even if they were nominated by primaries, it would not mean that a Representative was chosen by the people, since a party primary has an exclusive electorate.</p>
<p>So how is this different from the case of Superior Court judges in New York?  The NY Constitution requires them to be elected by the voters, and they are.  Lopez Torres sought election in 2003 and lost.</p>
<p>Richard: I don&#8217;t see where the 305 delegates is coming from.  The Federal District Court decision says that there were 124 delegates from 24 AD.  The plaintiff&#8217;s brief says that Lopez Torres would have had to run 127 delegate candidates.</p>
<p>Richard S: Breyer only joined Part II of Kennedy&#8217;s opinion, which was the generalized rant about electing judges at all.  Part I was the part where Kennedy said he would have dissented if not for the opportunity to petition to get on the general election ballot.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Prindle</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-208564</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Prindle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-208564</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the outcome would have been different if this had not been a judicial election case.

Since the Supreme Court in _White v. Republican Party of Minn._ overturned restrictions on political speech by judicial candidates, it appears that establishment interest groups -- especially within the legal profession -- have been steadily aligning against popular judicial elections and in favor of appointment by elected politicians advised by &quot;expert&quot; panels.

New York&#039;s process is neither, but the court may have been reluctant to impose a popular election process when such processes have become so unpopular among people of the justices&#039; social milieu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the outcome would have been different if this had not been a judicial election case.</p>
<p>Since the Supreme Court in _White v. Republican Party of Minn._ overturned restrictions on political speech by judicial candidates, it appears that establishment interest groups &#8212; especially within the legal profession &#8212; have been steadily aligning against popular judicial elections and in favor of appointment by elected politicians advised by &#8220;expert&#8221; panels.</p>
<p>New York&#8217;s process is neither, but the court may have been reluctant to impose a popular election process when such processes have become so unpopular among people of the justices&#8217; social milieu.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-208557</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-208557</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not 500 signatures, it&#039;s 10,500 signatures!  A separate petition is required in each of 21 Assembly districts (for her particular district).  Each of the 305 candidates for Delegate needs to be on one of those petitions.  Only party members may sign and only 37 days are permitted.  If Lopez Torres could do all that, she would do it.  She has tried many times to get a Democratic nomination, and she also once ran as the Working Families nominee.  She really, really want to run, and if she could, she wouldn&#039;t have brought the lawsuit.  No other anti-organization has done it either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not 500 signatures, it&#8217;s 10,500 signatures!  A separate petition is required in each of 21 Assembly districts (for her particular district).  Each of the 305 candidates for Delegate needs to be on one of those petitions.  Only party members may sign and only 37 days are permitted.  If Lopez Torres could do all that, she would do it.  She has tried many times to get a Democratic nomination, and she also once ran as the Working Families nominee.  She really, really want to run, and if she could, she wouldn&#8217;t have brought the lawsuit.  No other anti-organization has done it either.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-208196</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 04:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-208196</guid>
		<description>Therefore, perhaps it possible that a decision that is only 12 pages with four pages of additional opinions is short, because the outcome is simply a no-brainer.  500 signatures can be collected by anyone.  Therefore, there is absolutely no burden on voters, much less a burden that violates the US Constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Therefore, perhaps it possible that a decision that is only 12 pages with four pages of additional opinions is short, because the outcome is simply a no-brainer.  500 signatures can be collected by anyone.  Therefore, there is absolutely no burden on voters, much less a burden that violates the US Constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/comment-page-1/#comment-208189</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 04:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/01/16/some-observations-on-the-lopez-torres-decision/#comment-208189</guid>
		<description>The decision is simple:  Lopez Torres does not have the right to a primary election or a process that is functionally the same.  A candidate running delegates for rank-and-file voters to select is the same as a primary system.  No such right exists to a primary type nomination system.  It is no different then trying to run for a federal district court judge by running candidates for president and the senate.  The system is not meant for a candidate to do that, but to address the candidacy to the elected person charged with the decision making.  That delegates will not vote for a popular person such as Lopez Torres may suck for her, but it is not unconstitutional any more then a US Senator blocking the nomniation of a US District Court Judge. (this is from an actual comment made by Justice Souter and can be read in the Supreme Court transcript).  Therefore, there is actually NO burden to a candidate to running in multiple assembly districts, much less 21, since candidates do not run delegates under the New York convention system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The decision is simple:  Lopez Torres does not have the right to a primary election or a process that is functionally the same.  A candidate running delegates for rank-and-file voters to select is the same as a primary system.  No such right exists to a primary type nomination system.  It is no different then trying to run for a federal district court judge by running candidates for president and the senate.  The system is not meant for a candidate to do that, but to address the candidacy to the elected person charged with the decision making.  That delegates will not vote for a popular person such as Lopez Torres may suck for her, but it is not unconstitutional any more then a US Senator blocking the nomniation of a US District Court Judge. (this is from an actual comment made by Justice Souter and can be read in the Supreme Court transcript).  Therefore, there is actually NO burden to a candidate to running in multiple assembly districts, much less 21, since candidates do not run delegates under the New York convention system.</p>
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