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	<title>Comments on: Anti-Barr Pennsylvania Lawsuit Includes 139 Pages of Exhibits</title>
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	<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/</link>
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		<title>By: TennExile</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-487000</link>
		<dc:creator>TennExile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-487000</guid>
		<description>It is safe to say  that the low-life Republican Party, the party of Bush, will stop at nothing to demean, slander and steal their way into office. These animals are the most un-American bunch I have ever seen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is safe to say  that the low-life Republican Party, the party of Bush, will stop at nothing to demean, slander and steal their way into office. These animals are the most un-American bunch I have ever seen.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim R</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-486950</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 00:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-486950</guid>
		<description>Re: #12.  In 1912, California was still electing individual presidential electors (Wilson received 2 electoral votes).  Did the names of Wilson, Roosevelt, or Debs appear on the ballot?

The practice of California in 1912 does not define the limits of how a State may appoint its presidential electors any more than the practice of Tennessee in 1796 did.

State law could vest the authority to nominate the presidential candidate in a national convention, or even a national primary, and then let that candidate name the presidential electors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #12.  In 1912, California was still electing individual presidential electors (Wilson received 2 electoral votes).  Did the names of Wilson, Roosevelt, or Debs appear on the ballot?</p>
<p>The practice of California in 1912 does not define the limits of how a State may appoint its presidential electors any more than the practice of Tennessee in 1796 did.</p>
<p>State law could vest the authority to nominate the presidential candidate in a national convention, or even a national primary, and then let that candidate name the presidential electors.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-486897</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-486897</guid>
		<description>In regards to South Dakota in 1912. I&#039;ve heard that the voters elected Republican electors, who decided to pick Roosevelt over Taft.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In regards to South Dakota in 1912. I&#8217;ve heard that the voters elected Republican electors, who decided to pick Roosevelt over Taft.</p>
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		<title>By: JH</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-486882</link>
		<dc:creator>JH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-486882</guid>
		<description>Perhaps LPNH can nominate whomever it likes. But after having their one-state nominating &quot;convention,&quot; (which I suspect most people understood to be nonbinding and not final), I believe they went ahead and sent delegates to the national convention. If you were planning on effectively forming your own party and rejecting all but your chosen nominee, I think it&#039;s disingenuous to then try to shape who the national nominee is. You&#039;re either part of the Libertarian Party or you&#039;re not.

It sounds like you guys really don&#039;t like Bob Barr and that you have a legitimate grievance over ballot access. I can&#039;t speak to the latter but the former was hashed out at the convention. New Hampshire and many others were heard but their view did not prevail. If our state affiliates don&#039;t view ballot access for our chosen nominee as a formality but rather as another battle for the candidates, it will do enormous long-term harm to the libertarian movement. 

I will personally go up and help the New Hampshire LP collect signatures next time round if tomorrow they relent and remove Phillies from the ballot before this unnecessary lawsuit has to be filed. Or we can all dig in about our grievances and undermine our best opportunity in a presidential election in a long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps LPNH can nominate whomever it likes. But after having their one-state nominating &#8220;convention,&#8221; (which I suspect most people understood to be nonbinding and not final), I believe they went ahead and sent delegates to the national convention. If you were planning on effectively forming your own party and rejecting all but your chosen nominee, I think it&#8217;s disingenuous to then try to shape who the national nominee is. You&#8217;re either part of the Libertarian Party or you&#8217;re not.</p>
<p>It sounds like you guys really don&#8217;t like Bob Barr and that you have a legitimate grievance over ballot access. I can&#8217;t speak to the latter but the former was hashed out at the convention. New Hampshire and many others were heard but their view did not prevail. If our state affiliates don&#8217;t view ballot access for our chosen nominee as a formality but rather as another battle for the candidates, it will do enormous long-term harm to the libertarian movement. </p>
<p>I will personally go up and help the New Hampshire LP collect signatures next time round if tomorrow they relent and remove Phillies from the ballot before this unnecessary lawsuit has to be filed. Or we can all dig in about our grievances and undermine our best opportunity in a presidential election in a long time.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-486609</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-486609</guid>
		<description>Actually, as I pointed in a private email to many on the LNC, Richard Winger, and other interested parties last night, should the LNC attempt to disaffiliate LPNH, the quote from Richard above is in fact a valid defense:  While National (and it&#039;s convention) might have a moral authority, they certainly have no legal one, and having no legal one means the choice must have been one of a moral/ethical nature.  

Given our repeated complaints about ballot access timing/difficulties which we made National aware of, which they dismissed and preferred to blame on individuals, we faced a moral dilemma of how to best serve our members. (Risk having no ballot line again, or start early with a candidate we felt good with)

We (the LPNH board at the time, plus open discussions with others during board meetings) considered the options, made all parties aware of the options and issues, and held a public nomination convention with the LNC&#039;s full knowledge, witnessed by our Rep.  NOTA was always an option, and could have won if a simple majority wished.  

If what we were doing was immoral or unethical in the eyes of the LNC, they should have had their representative speak up right there and then, with a warning to our voting membership, or forever hold their peace.  Or at least file for disaffilation right there and then (by the next LNC meeting).  The fact they didn&#039;t says that the decision, while unpopular with many of them, didn&#039;t meet any real standard by which they felt sure we&#039;d crossed a moral line worthy of tossing us out of the LP.  Filing now would amount to a case of sour grapes over split milk.  You can&#039;t let stand an immoral choice until you suddenly feel like filing a complaint about it later on - either it was wrong in the first place, or it wasn&#039;t, so a failure to take action says that it wasn&#039;t immoral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, as I pointed in a private email to many on the LNC, Richard Winger, and other interested parties last night, should the LNC attempt to disaffiliate LPNH, the quote from Richard above is in fact a valid defense:  While National (and it&#8217;s convention) might have a moral authority, they certainly have no legal one, and having no legal one means the choice must have been one of a moral/ethical nature.  </p>
<p>Given our repeated complaints about ballot access timing/difficulties which we made National aware of, which they dismissed and preferred to blame on individuals, we faced a moral dilemma of how to best serve our members. (Risk having no ballot line again, or start early with a candidate we felt good with)</p>
<p>We (the LPNH board at the time, plus open discussions with others during board meetings) considered the options, made all parties aware of the options and issues, and held a public nomination convention with the LNC&#8217;s full knowledge, witnessed by our Rep.  NOTA was always an option, and could have won if a simple majority wished.  </p>
<p>If what we were doing was immoral or unethical in the eyes of the LNC, they should have had their representative speak up right there and then, with a warning to our voting membership, or forever hold their peace.  Or at least file for disaffilation right there and then (by the next LNC meeting).  The fact they didn&#8217;t says that the decision, while unpopular with many of them, didn&#8217;t meet any real standard by which they felt sure we&#8217;d crossed a moral line worthy of tossing us out of the LP.  Filing now would amount to a case of sour grapes over split milk.  You can&#8217;t let stand an immoral choice until you suddenly feel like filing a complaint about it later on &#8211; either it was wrong in the first place, or it wasn&#8217;t, so a failure to take action says that it wasn&#8217;t immoral.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Shepard</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-485883</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Shepard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-485883</guid>
		<description>Seth,

You need to read DEMOCRATIC PARTY V. WISCONSIN EX REL. LA FOLLETTE, 450 U. S. 107 (1981).  If you want the LPNH to withdraw its affiliation from the LNC, that&#039;s one thing.  But if you want the LPNH to retain its affiliation that&#039;s another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth,</p>
<p>You need to read DEMOCRATIC PARTY V. WISCONSIN EX REL. LA FOLLETTE, 450 U. S. 107 (1981).  If you want the LPNH to withdraw its affiliation from the LNC, that&#8217;s one thing.  But if you want the LPNH to retain its affiliation that&#8217;s another.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-485869</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-485869</guid>
		<description>Speaking as a member of LPNH&#039;s ExecComm, this entirely misses 2 things:

1) LPNH held a convention and picked a candidate.  Barr was not our choice, nor was the choice &quot;To be determined later&quot;, nor was the choice NOTA.

2) LPNH ExecComm has never held a vote wanting to substitute.  Discussed it, yes.  But even if we did, it&#039;s unclear that we even have the authority under the bylaws and constitution of LPNH to order it.  We couldn&#039;t even replace a nominee (Governor) decided at the same convention as we decided on Prez.

3) LNC is bringing the lawsuit, NOT LPNH.  In fact, they asked us if we&#039;d join them, NOT the reverse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking as a member of LPNH&#8217;s ExecComm, this entirely misses 2 things:</p>
<p>1) LPNH held a convention and picked a candidate.  Barr was not our choice, nor was the choice &#8220;To be determined later&#8221;, nor was the choice NOTA.</p>
<p>2) LPNH ExecComm has never held a vote wanting to substitute.  Discussed it, yes.  But even if we did, it&#8217;s unclear that we even have the authority under the bylaws and constitution of LPNH to order it.  We couldn&#8217;t even replace a nominee (Governor) decided at the same convention as we decided on Prez.</p>
<p>3) LNC is bringing the lawsuit, NOT LPNH.  In fact, they asked us if we&#8217;d join them, NOT the reverse.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-485857</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-485857</guid>
		<description>Seth, the difference is that the NHLP wants to be able to substitute Barr for Phillies, but is unable to do so by state law.  If the NHLP wanted Phillies on the ballot, then it would be the same, but they don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, the difference is that the NHLP wants to be able to substitute Barr for Phillies, but is unable to do so by state law.  If the NHLP wanted Phillies on the ballot, then it would be the same, but they don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-485844</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-485844</guid>
		<description>So by Richard&#039;s own posting of info, WHY is the LNC thinking they have a case worth pursuing in NH, with plans to file on the 27th?

I imagine a judge could well write:

&quot;The logical flaw in the lawsuit is that it assumes the national convention in May changed the presidential nominee of the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire. In law, national conventions have no authority whatsoever. They only have moral authority. Any state party (whether a major party or a minor party) is free to choose its own presidential candidate, since in law, only state parties nominate candidates for presidential elector. The presidential electors are the true candidates in November, and if a state party ignores the choice of the national party, it may do so.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So by Richard&#8217;s own posting of info, WHY is the LNC thinking they have a case worth pursuing in NH, with plans to file on the 27th?</p>
<p>I imagine a judge could well write:</p>
<p>&#8220;The logical flaw in the lawsuit is that it assumes the national convention in May changed the presidential nominee of the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire. In law, national conventions have no authority whatsoever. They only have moral authority. Any state party (whether a major party or a minor party) is free to choose its own presidential candidate, since in law, only state parties nominate candidates for presidential elector. The presidential electors are the true candidates in November, and if a state party ignores the choice of the national party, it may do so.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/08/24/anti-barr-pennsylvania-lawsuit-includes-139-pages-of-exhibits/comment-page-1/#comment-485732</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ballot-access.org/?p=3835#comment-485732</guid>
		<description>They should win even if they substituted electors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should win even if they substituted electors.</p>
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